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[–]Charlaquin   658 points659 points  (55 children)

They think girls will go see movies that center male experiences but boys won’t go see movies that center female experiences. They might even be right, but if so that’s all the more reason we need more movies that center female experiences, because culturally we have a problem with boys and men not being taught empathy for women and girls.

[–]Astrium6   169 points170 points  (18 children)

It’s why they started changing how they titled movies after The Princess and the Frog. They thought the word “princess” in the title made boys less likely to want to see it.

[–]Boom_chaka_laka   138 points139 points  (3 children)

Tangled is a good example of this, they purposely did not name the movie Rapunzel or Princess in the Tower or whatever to not repel the boys. They also chose to have Flynn's character narrate Rapunzel's story for added measure.

[–]STheShadow   16 points17 points  (0 children)

In Germany they actually did: https://www.imdb.com/de/title/tt0398286/

The addition is a pretty horrible pun

[–]BlueWater321   9 points10 points  (1 child)

I don't know how to feel about this because I really like Tangled.

[–]HumerousMoniker   [score hidden]  (0 children)

First of all, tangled is awesome. I think it says more about the producers than the hypothetical audience. Kids will watch absolutely anything. They do not care if it’s quality or not. It’s the people making the film spending 1000+ person-hours in brainstorm meetings trying to pick out any piece of bias they can find.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 33 points34 points  (13 children)

Wow thanks for that kinda scary. I mean Beauty and the Beast was a movie someone should have told Disney they should have named it differently.

Any idea why you think executives seem to be thoughtless lately?

[–]anfrind   28 points29 points  (3 children)

According to the book "Creativity, Inc.", male audiences used to be more inclined to watch a movie with a strong female protagonist, such as "Beauty and the Beast" or "Brave", but that has changed over the years. Part of why "The Princess and The Frog" flopped was that Ed Catmull and John Lasseter (who had then recently taken over at Disney Animation) wrongly believed that audiences would still respond to 2-D animated movies with female protagonists the same way they did in past decades.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 9 points10 points  (2 children)

What did they feel changed? Do you believe males have changed in the same way?

[–]anfrind   14 points15 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, the book doesn't really go into further detail, other than to frame it as a lesson in why managers should listen when their staff tell them they're making a mistake.

And while I don't like the idea that male audiences were more inclined to see "Tangled" and "Frozen" merely because the movie titles lacked any gender-specific words, the evidence does seem to point in that direction.

[–]Kellar21   12 points13 points  (0 children)

What changed is that a lot of the next generation of boys got more interested in anime and other media that was more attention grabbing for them.

There's a whole lot to be said about the cultural changes that happened since them.

ALSO, in the past decade, there has a been a push for young men to not accept woman centered movies or games since there's a perceived lacked of men centered media being released and that they should "vote with their wallets" so that executives go back to making content for them.

It's partly true in SOME cases, but it has less to do with it being woman-centered and more to do with certain genres or types of things or even not accepting low-quality, monetized products.

It's way more complex than boys going "ewww" on "girly" movies.

[–]HalcyonTraveler   18 points19 points  (8 children)

Executives have always been like that, it’s just that it’s become more visible 

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 5 points6 points  (7 children)

Do you think it's good that we have reporting and can find out that they are killing these stories?

Or do you think its better before social media where we might never know?

I think it is upsetting to know about it but Id rather know than not know.

[–]HalcyonTraveler   7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think transparency is good, even (or especially) if it makes us justifiably mad

[–]FMLwtfDoID   10 points11 points  (5 children)

In books as well, iirc Harry Potter was originally a female lead but Rowling changed it to a boy so she could have a broader audience because boys would not/will not empathize with a female lead. This has been known.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 19 points20 points  (4 children)

Kinda like how she hid her name because she was afraid being a female author wouldn't sell as well.

https://harrypotter.fandom.com/f/p/2990953919905007596

[–]FMLwtfDoID   16 points17 points  (3 children)

Exactly. She supports herself changing her name to present to the world as a male author, but rejects the idea that someone else might want to present themselves as a different gender than they were born as, to the world. She’s a nasty (and stupid) bitch.

[–]descartes_blanche   5 points6 points  (1 child)

My theory is that Rowling is actually trans but their ego was so bruised by the backlash to them saying “Dumbledore was gay btw” that they now feel like they can’t come out.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Wow we musta been on the same wavelength I was sorta writing that but didn't see you did it as well.

I was wondering if they were trans masculine or at keast struggled with it and that's why seeing happy trans people like makes her bitter like the Grinch and thus if she can't be happy she's gotta use her billions to ruin everything.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Absolutely I wonder if she resents trans people because deep down she has some trans masculine feelings and is jealous of people who live authentically when she can't.

So many conservative people end up being like that and eventually discovered one day.

[–]winning at brow gameTrashyLolita   44 points45 points  (8 children)

It's worth noting that the Powerpuff Girls has shown that boys can and will watch female experiences—they simply hesitate to be caught watching it in public.

You can not convince me that K-Pop Demon Hunters didn't attract the same kind of boys who'd watch it privately. I hate to say it, but they made the right decision, putting it for streaming instead of theaters.

[–]Lionwoman   3 points4 points  (1 child)

I think the movie flopped because of the same reason. I remember hearing the creators (or someone talking about how the creators) commented something alike that the problem was (specially boys) didn't want to see it on a movie theater.

[–]winning at brow gameTrashyLolita   1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's exactly my point lol

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Did you catch the new Powerpuff girls? If so how was it...

Oh yeah there's no was McDonald's is making special meals and major marketing without K pop being mainstream!

Did you try it I did didn't get any rare cards though 😔

[–]winning at brow gameTrashyLolita   4 points5 points  (3 children)

Honestly, the only good PPG adaptation (aside from OG tbh) is the anime. The reboot is...erm, Not Good lol

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

There is an Anime wow didn't see that one coming. When did that come out?

[–]winning at brow gameTrashyLolita   4 points5 points  (1 child)

Just know it's a very different story where the girls are different, but it was still a fun show. From 2006.

But yeah, the PPG I'm talking about in my comment is regarding the OG. The OG cartoon was a massive success, but it did not meet the same success when the movie came out because all the boys who were secretly watching it at home did not want to be seen watching it in public.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow 😲 what how is it so bad to like it publicly oh man so sad.

When I was younger I was more of a tomboy so i really loved buttercup!

Yet as I got older because I do have ADHD am blond and if I wanna be honest at times am flighty and not always taken seriously so bubbles all the way now 😅

[–]Winterseele   [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yeah, when I was a child in the 90s EVERYONE watched Sailor Moon, also the boys. But they would always say it is their little sister who watches it...

[–]AwesomeManatee   20 points21 points  (2 children)

Weirdly enough, Disney's upcoming Hexed apparently changed from a movie about a mother-son dynamic to a mother-daughter. I guess they thought only girls can have relationships with their mothers.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

That's also 🤢 gross. What about single moms with a son and what about the sons who could use the story of one who's connected and learning from their mom.

I am almost more offended what women can't raise boys now!?

[–]Kellar21   2 points3 points  (0 children)

They probably decided to err on the side of caution and go back to making "focused" movies rather than broad-audience ones or something.

[–]athennna   14 points15 points  (1 child)

Which is crazy, because Frozen and Moana are two of Disney’s biggest IPs and my son loves both of them.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is so cool 😎 what's funny is my online name was Icegirl since I was like 13 so when Elsa hit for awhile everyone was like oh wow because of Frozen 😂

It's like no actually I liked this for awhile.

Then What's kinda upsetting is sometimes when I write my name online i go by just ICE and we all know how people feel about "ICE" at the moment.

In short what we like and what we enjoy can at times be an association that follows us even if we don't intend for it.

I think it's cool your sun loves Moana and frozen.

I think frozen has some moments in both movies that are really excellent.

My grandmother died last year I was devastated and the song the next right thing really helped me a lot.

https://youtu.be/kFkClV2gM-s?feature=shared

I didn't remember how songs could be so real that they help remind you to take the next step.

[–]Willing_Pattern_Pill   30 points31 points  (0 children)

And culturally the rich class doesn't want men to have empathy for women and girls. The more of us regular folk team up, the scarier it gets for the handful at the top. 

And of course, everyone's at the top wants women to be beaten down. We're easier to abuse and discredit that way. 

[–]username-does-exist   6 points7 points  (0 children)

Fuck us women/girls for being 50% of the population I guess 🤦🏻‍♀️

[–]riotshieldready   14 points15 points  (0 children)

The top grossing Disney movies of all time are zootopia 2 (women lead) inside out 2 (teen girl lead) the lion king and frozen 2 (woman lead).

The notion that this movie would do bad because of it being about girls/women is a lie. Disney knows it would have done insane numbers and we see it with kpop demon hunter.

What’s more the biggest kpop demon hunter fan is a boy who’s watched it every single day since release, and kids watch it so much that on average every Netflix subscriber has watched the movie more than once.

This is just alt right culture war now reaching the children, they don’t want to depict women/girls are strong in another IP. They are quick to blame every flop on “woke” but ignore that every success is also “woke”.

[–]hairsprayking   4 points5 points  (0 children)

so weird because I don't ever recall thinking that as a kid when I watched Pocahontas or Little Mermaid or Beauty and the Beast etc.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 10 points11 points  (8 children)

I agree maybe part of the reason it is this way is females and non bianry are just so low on representation naturally we sorta don't stamp our feet if something doesn't feature us.

It would be nice though if so many stories were being made of a range that young boys and teenage boys wouldn't feel odd going to see a movie that stars female characters.

[–]Charlaquin   9 points10 points  (7 children)

Exactly. We don’t really have a whole lot of choice, most media centers male experiences, so non-male people either have to learn from a young age to empathize with male protagonists, or accept that our media options are going to be extremely limited. On the other hand, young boys have their pick of the litter. The vast majority of media centers people who look like them, so they never have to learn to empathize with anyone else. They have the luxury of deciding “that’s a girl’s movie, I don’t care about it” and still having tons of other movies to enjoy.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 3 points4 points  (6 children)

What are some of your favorite girl first Media content recently?

Clearly as many people mentioned K pop deamon hunters has been great and I am glad Netflix decided to produce it when Sony was thinking about killing it (isn't that wild)

Before this one of mine was The legend of Korra but it hasn't been as popular.

[–]LostButterflyUtau   5 points6 points  (1 child)

Not who you asked, but my favourite cartoon of all time is Elena of Avalor. It came out at a weird time and wasn’t marketed well, so it flew under the radar terribly.

I also love Sofia the First, Winx Club, and just magical girl anime in general. Things like Pretty Cure, Tokyo Mew Mew, and Sailor Moon.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing I always like to know what's around and also what I could recommend 😁

[–]thedrunkunicorn   4 points5 points  (3 children)

Here's some good news! Children's publishing is dominated by women (and there's a pretty decent subsection of queer/NB folks), from authors to agents to editors to librarians and booksellers. Now, granted, there are massive issues in the industry, and a lot of the reasons women are so overrepresented is due to the outsized emotional labor these positions come with. And we all have to contend with late-stage capitalism, which makes our jobs so much harder.

And of course there are the assholes or simply uninformed who think "anyone can write a picture book" or "YA is lesser because it's geared toward girls and young women" but they are wrong.

But, genuinely, if you want to support media that directly supports women and children at multiple levels, buy kid's books. Bonus: they're often more hopeful and colorful and brighter in every way.

[–]anfrind   2 points3 points  (0 children)

There's also a weird corollary, in that lots of people in the book industry seem to automatically assume that a book written by a woman (and especially if it's written by an Asian woman) is automatically suitable for young adult audiences. The most egregious example I've seen was when Waterstones tried to market "The Poppy War" as a YA fantasy.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Any stand outs you'd recommend?

[–]thedrunkunicorn   0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on your or a specific child's taste! I personally love anything by Briana McDonald for the age 8-12 crowd. Her books are very inclusive and fun and sweet.

[–]Pluckytoon   [score hidden]  (1 child)

Feel like girls can relate more easily to „male experiences“ than boys can do on girls‘. But „male experiences“ are usually pretty generalistic friendship, kinship, heroics or growing up after later teen years. The teenage angst and psyche, plus the start of menstrual cycles are excluding-ish potential public because they either had a pretty tame teen years or because they don‘t menstruate.

I don‘t really think this is something marketing would overlook without concerns as in the end business must make profits.

While I do agree that medias can have a good impact on how children can grow up to act, I don‘t feel it should need to be the medium that teaches empathy toward girls as much as actual decent parenting should enforce. It‘s too easy to rely on external sources for lessons for parents that can‘t actually do bare minimum tbh

[–]Mrs_Muzzy   112 points113 points  (1 child)

The local library system (TN) is labeling “female empowerment” as “extreme gender ideology” and removing those books from the children’s section. This decision has the same energy. Normalizing the notion that girls/women are supporting characters in other’s stories, instead of the protagonist/hero in their own story. Sad times….

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

This is genuinely blew my mind why I gave you an award for sharing.

I wish more stories like this blew up women and people who want diversity gotta get up and vocal now before we're all erased.

I would never imagine the day when a story like "little women" or the babysitters club would be considered Extreme Gender Ideology.

[–]But_I_Digress_   134 points135 points  (7 children)

I feel like Turning Red was a victim of timing. It came out when theatres were closed.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 49 points50 points  (2 children)

There were people even at Pixar who were upset that Disney decided to not release it.

Note Tom Cruise was told by Paramount that they were going to send Top Gun 2 straight to streaming but since he was a top producer with some ownership of the movie he decided to withhold the movie and force a big screen release.

Also what is the excuse for Disney killing Be Fri?

https://decider.com/2022/01/11/pixar-disappointed-disney-turning-red-release/

https://www.ign.com/articles/tom-cruise-refused-to-allow-top-gun-maverick-debut-streaming

[–]Kellar21   10 points11 points  (1 child)

Tom Cruise has WAY more power to do that than most Disney execs, to be honest.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Makes sense yeah Tom Cruise isn't the average investor/ executive. He's also one of the most famous people on earth and the star of almost everything he is in and if he denounces a film he is in then it would crash and burn anyway with the fans.

I get your point that even if some people liked turning red and clearly someone did since it got green lit some higher executive was like oh dear goddess this is so girly it's even about an allegory for periods and becoming a woman and the main enemy is some vague sense of younger girls not living up to their mothers expectations and how that is generational pain.

Ack quick lets make toy story 6!

[–]PartyPorpoise   [+1] 10 points11 points  (3 children)

Turning Red merch is still readily available, it’s still being produced so it must’ve been a success even if it doesn’t have box office numbers to show it.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I relate to it a lot I didn't do well with the whole teenage thing what person who menstruates doesn't have a freak out or two.

I got to see red at Animal Kingdom a couple of years ago but i just don't see the love for the movie that other Disney tends to get.

I feel it is because they never marked it truly so it's like gonna be a cult classic which is odd to think that Disney could make something like that.

[–]PartyPorpoise   [+1] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yeah being relegated to streaming limited its impact. Though given the timing I’m not sure it would’ve been a smash hit in theaters anyway. Still, I think it’s gotten a good audience all things considered.

And the thing about Disney is that they play the long game with their movies. Do you know how many “Disney classics” were actually box office disappointments? Even if a Disney movie genuinely does poorly at first, it may get an audience later on. I’m sure in twenty years, Turning Red will be a “Pixar classic” and everyone will be complaining about how Pixar hasn’t been good since 2030 or some shit.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting take of what Pixar made lately it is a stand out in my opinion!

[–]faeriechyld   70 points71 points  (18 children)

Execs need to have some faith in boys. My husband absolutely loves Turning Red. He liked it way more than Luca.

I'll just never understand why girls are expected to be able to see themselves in boy dominated media but boys are never expected to see themselves in girl dominated media. A lot of young boys I've known have been interested and willing to watch girl dominated media but it's usually the adults in their lives that stop them. This is one of those times I really wish I'd had kids, bc if I'd had boys, I would have been really careful to raise them with lots of strong women/girls in their media diet. There would have been no "that's for girls/boys don't watch this" talk in my house.

[–]Magnaflorius   28 points29 points  (6 children)

Luca slaps though. I think its representation of close male friendship is important for little boys. There aren't a lot of movies that show boys being physically and emotionally close like that.

Turning Red also slaps. Both of them are high quality movies. I'd like to see more movies that have realistic and positive representation of close friendships.

And the hand wringing about the period stuff is crazy. My eldest has known about how blood comes out of the vagina and how that's okay since she was 2. She asked if we could cut open a pad to see what's inside and I obliged.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 6 points7 points  (5 children)

What age do you think it's appropriate to have that conversation?

I got into some hot water with one of my friends because her niece came to me when a boy in highschool was pressuring her for sex and she felt uncomfortable.

I told her it's ok to follow her heart and if a man doesn't respect your comfort level then it's not consent and that's not healthy.

I told my friend and her mother about it after asking her it was alright if i shared because I didn't want her to feel unsupported.

My friends sister was like oh thank god you had that talk I was worried but didn't wanna pry and she seemed so stressed.

But my friend was pissed that she would come to me over the family and that I would even talk to her without telling them what I was gonna say.

So these kinds of discussions are sensitive and I myself sometimes wonder what do we say and how do we ensure it's always age appropriate.

[–]Magnaflorius   3 points4 points  (2 children)

If they can ask the question, they deserve a proper answer. Coincidentally, my youngest (2.5 years) just found an unused tampon and asked what it was. I told her it was a tampon. She asked if she could eat it and I said no, and she asked why. I said it's not food. She asked what it is then. I told her it goes in my vagina. She asked why. I said to catch the blood that comes out sometimes. Then she lost interest. If she has more questions another time, she'll get more answers.

Kids deserve to know information about factual topics they're interested in.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That's wild and so appropriate. You're such an amazing mom. Yeah my mom at the time would have been like I will tell you when your older and then never really tell me.

She loved sorta distract and avoid uncomfortable topics.

[–]Magnaflorius   [score hidden]  (0 children)

I love that I found this thread today. Right before bedtime, my eldest (5) also saw the box of tampons and had questions. I haven't had a period in a couple years (IUD) so they haven't been out, but now that I'm spotting, the tampons are on the counter.

Anyway, we looked at her anatomy book and I gave her a tablespoon of water and let her put a tampon in to see how it soaks up all the water. She thought it was awesome. I also thought it was fun haha. I genuinely don't know why people don't want to have these learning moments with their kids. I love it and hopefully these repeated conversations will help my kids feel more confident about their bodies.

I was like 17 or 18 when I learned that pee doesn't come out of my vagina. I don't want that for my kids.

[–]Expensive_You_7167   3 points4 points  (1 child)

There’s so much to take into account here. Some kids are not comfortable talking about that stuff with their parents and prefer a more « neutral » person. Some kids feel like they won’t be heard or might be judged by their parents. I think it’s great that you were a safe person for that little girl to come to.

As per your question, I’d say there is no right or wrong age to discuss these topics if the curiosity is there. Be it « Mom, why do you bleed from down there? » or « aka_icegirl there’s someone that won’t stop pestering me for sex » or whatever. It’s important to stay age appropriate and not create fear or unease, is my take. But anything can be talked about. And saying « I’m not comfortable talking about that with you right now » is valid too. They learn from adults around them, let’s lay some good foundations!

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's hard you know I think being raised as women we really do wanna respect boundaries but also wanna care for people.

The thought that I upset my friend was weighing on me but also if I have a daughter or niece one day in the same situation I'd want someone to have a consent talk with my relative.

It is harder for young girls the consequences are so much larger and real.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Your very lucky to find a guy like that!

I think you make a good point its not the boys themselves its the culture that teaches them oh no this isn't for you / oh no you wanna watch that what is wrong with you.

So its like they young boys get programed to think oh for girls yuck!

I hope you are making your family planning decisions according to your needs :-) -- I plan to consider it one day at the moment I am in medical school so just too busy if I had a child I wouldn't have the time.

[–]Cranky_Merriweather   2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes. It’s a combo of good old-fashioned sexism and toxic masculinity 

[–]faeriechyld   1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm 42 and we have built our life over the last 8 years around not having kids. We aren't able to conceive naturally and after I had some back issues a few years ago, I decided to change careers to something more fulfilling but less stable instead of keeping my corporate job which was stable but stressful. It was basically move forward with adoption and keep the job I hated or change course and work part time and embrace being the cool aunt.

I appreciate your kind words and the sentiment. It was a thoughtful way to phrase things. 💜 Good luck with medical school!

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It takes a brave woman to share so deeply especially online.

My auntie has been closer to me than my own mom.

Now I love my mom but my aunt dee dee is truly one of my best friends.

So that is still a huge impact in people's lives.

The most important thing people can do for one another is lift each other up and talking to you today helped make me feel better when I was sad that Disney isn't like how it was when I grew up. 😭

The fact we had a meaningful conversation that makes it better then just venting ☺️

[–]RainMH11   1 point2 points  (6 children)

This is why I was way more nervous about the possibility of having a boy than having a girl. I suppose part of it is that I have lived the "girl experience" so I have a better idea of what notes I want to hit as a parent, but I also feel like there is such a need right now for society to reenvision how we raise boys. Now that I've had one kid I feel more up to the task of trying, but it's still intimidating.

Fortunately I married someone for whom toxic masculinity did not imprint terribly well 😉

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I do agree it would be harder for me to raise a son as well if I were to have one. Especially because if they did adopt some of my values they probably would get picked on for being too soft or whatever.

But I wouldn't wanna just let them grow up to be a jerk who treats people especially women like non people either.

It be funny but maybe I would track down some old mister Rogers and bob Ross videos and be like hey masculinity is a range of representation and being chill calm friendly loving respectful can also be masculine.

[–]RainMH11   5 points6 points  (4 children)

I think Steven Universe is also a great example of representation for boys, for anyone else who's looking!

Currently trying to manage Princess Culture with my 3 year old daughter 🤪

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Yeah one of my friends raised one of there girls sorta gender neutral and viby pre 5 her favorite color was green and like ehr parents she liked to hike and bike and get in the mudd.

Bit I guess that made her the odd kid because once she got into kindergarten she stopped wanting to go camping as much pink and red became her favorite colors and she's all into unicorns and princesses.

She has said some of the girls at school think playing in the mudd and wearing so much gray and such as she did was wrong.

So she kinda changed it all to fit in better with her cohort and like her family was so anxious 😰 like do we argue with her to be her or do we keep supporting her to have the reputation of the odd girl who will chase a frog in the mudd.

[–]RainMH11   1 point2 points  (2 children)

Mine is in a big princess phase and it came kinda out of nowhere, I was concerned that maybe she was getting pigeonholed in daycare, as the only girl. But I also don't want to pressure her in the opposite direction, that's not fair either, so I'm just kind of... Following her lead, going with the flow, and trying to introduce the idea that "princess" doesn't have to mean xyz

[–]LostButterflyUtau   [score hidden]  (0 children)

Has she seen Elena of Avalor? Elena is my favourite princess and part of the reason why is throughout her story, we see how her being one is actually a job of sorts. She’s actively ruling her kingdom, having grand council meetings, meeting with other royals/dignitaries and, of course, going on adventures along the way with her best friends. She even does BORING stuff like paperwork!

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh yeah totally good gotta let her lead but also it's fun to show examples of some of the good "princesses" that Disney used to make.

Like some are maybe not fit because she's too young but I love how Jasmine doesn't just want other people to make choices for her I love the scene where she walks in and is like I am not a prize to be won!

Like yeah sometimes being a princess is standing up for yourself and being yourself.

No one mentioned this yet maybe because it wasn't as popular and the sequel was mid but vanellope von schweetz being a glitch when actually she was a princess the whole time and even when the world gets reset shes like eh I may be a queen but I'm still a racer who likes to drive and be chill.

Such a fun character who I think does a great job of being herself.

And who knows what the future holds for your daughter or any of us.

But being loving and supportive is always a great first step 🪜.

[–]prickwhowaspromised   27 points28 points  (2 children)

Yeah, girl power just doesn’t work anymore. That’s why K-Pop Demon Hunters was a complete flop /s

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Disney usually wins best songs for there movies and had to sit back anc watch Golden take it 😁 what's funny is that isn't even close to my favorite song from the movie

This is what it looks like

And I'll be your Idol I find so much more lit 🔥

[–]prickwhowaspromised   5 points6 points  (0 children)

I’ve thought that same thing about those two songs. Golden just has more mainstream appeal

[–]LostButterflyUtau   22 points23 points  (4 children)

Unfortunately, this attitude is nothing new. The USA (I can only speak for here because I’m American) has long struggled with girl-centric media because media created by and for women/girls is still seen as “less than.” And people make fun of things that are popular with this audience. Doubly so if it appeals to teenage girls, who are always the butt monkey for some reason.

It comes down to what has already essentially been said here: companies think Anyone can watch the “boy” movie/show and relate to the male protagonist. Girls being “tomboys” is okay. But, only girls can watch the “girl” show/movie and relate to the female protagonist. Boys liking anything feminine is not okay. Therefore the “girl” media has less audience, which means less money, which means not worth investing in.

It’s misguided as all get out. Because women are the backbone of modern fandom!! We’re the ones disproportionately buying the merch, writing the fics, creating fanart, and even making merch when companies refuse to.

Additionally, I worked at Walmart for over a decade and it felt like the “girl” brands (no matter if they were Disney, Nick, Netflix, etc.) were a revolving door. Before anyone could ask “hey, who’s that (new character)?” Her clothes and merch were phased out with another “who’s that (character)?” Meanwhile the “boy” section stayed fairly consistent with things like Superheros, Minecraft, Paw Patrol, SpongeBob, etc.

Note that I am NOT saying there aren’t successes. There are. But these days success for a “girl” series that’s not for preschoolers seems few and far between because The 6-11 female demo in particular gets shafted hard when it comes to media and has for years

Source: Been a fan of girly media and magical girls since the 00s, and was old enough to see and pay attention to the magical girl boom and bust of that time. I was also part of the Elena of Avalor fandom and witnessed the awful marketing for that show from 2016-2020.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah one of my friends told me to check out She Ran before it went off Netflix and into content hell because it can't be released again without renegotiation.

And I was like 😳 woah here I am in my 30's and this is great why don't I see more push for it or sub series.

We are literally at the point if remaking the damn Harry Potter movies pretty much shot for shot of a brand that lets face it is problematic because the creator has gone off the deep end.

Yet awesome new stuff either gets snuffed out before being made or released and then forgotten.

😰

What was elena of avalor about? Would you recommend it?

[–]Kellar21   0 points1 point  (2 children)

Isn't this because girl-focused media has a history of being momentarily successful but not staying power? Just look at Nickelodion.(There are exceptions though)

Whereas more generalist stuff has more chances of bringing in more money from everywhere.

Also, I would disagree with the thing about fandom in the sense that while women often do the more "visible" and social stuff, like doing art, writing fics, or making merch, in the matter of spending money(which companies like), men spend an overwhelming amount of money on stuff like that, and are more likely to buy the expensive, "exclusive" stuff.

I mean, when women artists (of which there are more in fandoms) get commissioned art, most of the people doing the commissioning are men.

And then you have stuff like Warhammer and Star Wars were most of the people spending absurd amounts of money are men.

This is one of the reasons the companies that spend billions on marketing research cater to the male part of the audience.

But that is changing, in some fandoms there are a lot more women than men, but those are often the more niche ones, IIRC.

[–]LostButterflyUtau   [score hidden]  (1 child)

I can’t say why it is exactly, because I’m not sure. I’m just giving my observations as a longtime fan of girl-focused media.

One thing I will add though, is that, depending on the fandom, there are more female fans than some would think. Fandom — especially those for popular, male-focused properties — is often not a “safe space” for women. I’ve read many a personal story about women fans being harassed in these fandom spaces and being told in not so many words that they “don’t belong” and are “fake fans” because “women can’t appreciate [property].” And that’s on the mild end. So they either stay quiet and go anon, or they create their own smaller spaces with other women and men who aren’t acting like dinguses.

[–]Kellar21   [score hidden]  (0 children)

Oh that's absolutely true, especially on some the larger fandoms like Warhammer and to a lesser extent, Star Wars.

It's just market research by those companies show that men spend way more money.

So, if you have Jane, Mary and Clarissa doing events, drawing art and writing fanfics, then you get Joey who just bought 800 dollars of merchandise in a month or even Carl who bought some crazy 2000 dollars collector's item, and then there's dozens of them.

Companies take notice of that and try to fit their model to cater to these people because it's lucrative.

[–]naileyes   7 points8 points  (1 child)

this is like the opposite of an excuse, but just for context, according to the article this all happened in 2023, around the time of the massive "anti-woke" backlash, also after Lightyear was a flop. i don't think they would do the same thing today.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Will see? I hope Disney has the guts to make something as awesome as Mulan again. ☺️

[–]YouStupidBench   11 points12 points  (2 children)

I keep hearing that they think men/boys won't watch movies that center women/girls, and they worry about not making any money, but I think that's an excuse to justify misogyny.

Hidden Figures, 2016: $236 million

Moana, 2016: $687.2 million

Rogue One, 2016: $1.059 billion

Wonder Woman, 2017: $824 million

Beauty and the Beast, 2017: $1.266 billion

Captain Marvel, 2019: $1.128 billion

Frozen 2, 2019: $1.453 billion

Black Widow, 2021: $379.8 million

Barbie, 2023: $1.448 billion

Inside Out 2, 2024: $1.699 billion

Wicked (part one), 2024: $758.8 million

Wicked (part two), 2025: $539 million

KPop Demon Hunters, 2025: Netflix's most-watched original film ever

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

It just seems wild that a most likely male executive is like dear god how dare you make a movie that features women quick kill that and make the 89th remake of an old property.

No one gets tired of remakes of old properties.

Do you think we will be willing to not go to movies that don't represent us as a counter move?

I will say this i have started to avoid going to the remakes like seriously did we need a worse Lilo and stitch or Moana?

[–]YouStupidBench   [score hidden]  (0 children)

My Dad has said that he's really sick of remakes, and I guess the older you get the worse the problem is because you've seen even more movies.

I've read several books this year that would make terrific movies, action and special effects and danger and disaster and heroic rescues. Two of them I was beta reader for, they haven't even been published yet. (If you're an actress who wants to star in a great movie, send me a PM.) And so when I see that they're doing yet another sequel, or yet another remake, it's disappointing.

I keep seeing that there's a box office crisis, that people aren't going to movies as much as they used to. Maybe showing something new would fix that.

[–]callmefreak   11 points12 points  (0 children)

So basically "we cancelled this movie because we want the chuds to come back."

I hope they wasted a ton of money on it.

[–]Fabricati_Diem_Pvn   18 points19 points  (8 children)

It makes sense when you realise one thing: Disney, like any Hollywood "studio" isn't actually a studio, but an investment corporation. That means it makes decisions based on the lowest risks. And those risks are always evaluated based on the past. If similar projects in the past havent done well, they will no finance such projects. If similar projects have done well, they will push to make this project even more similar. Because that reduces risks.

In the recrnt past no "girl power" movie has been successful, so Disney will not finance one. Now that K-Pop Demon Hunters has become successful, Disney will gladly pay to make very similar giro power movies like it.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 13 points14 points  (7 children)

It is just wild K-Pop worked because it was a passion project with vision artists make great stories not executives who bean count.

I don't disagree that raw numbers is a part of the mix but stories about a diverse group of people is sadly really missing..

[–]Fabricati_Diem_Pvn   4 points5 points  (2 children)

Nope, still risk assessment, still bean counting. Because those passion projects only get made by people who have already proved themselves. Like Deadpool: Ryan Reynolds has been very public about how his entire career has just been a series of stepping blocks to gain enough star power to have Deadpool be made. That's his passion project. Same with Cameron & Avatar: man has made enough money that he can say no to bean counters, because, in his own words, "the building you're calling from was paid by just one of my movies".

K-Pop's only difference was that Netflix needs to keep a market hold, now that every studio has their own streaming platform. So their threshold of risk is lower, they need to take more risks, and that's to the benefit to passion projects like this. That was the case for everyone during the streaming wars, but now that those are over, a lot of money needs to be recuperated. So it's back to counting beans.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Wow you make it seem scary that it is inevitable like Thanos is coming to make everything slop😰

[–]Fabricati_Diem_Pvn   1 point2 points  (0 children)

... Why do you think they asked the Russo brothers back? 😅

[–]JmBento   -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

That's the least wild thing ever, actually. It's in fact extremely common than projects made by people with a passion for the thing do great when bean-counted stuff flops (relatively speaking, considering how much is invested). You see the same in the gaming industry.

I can get any amount of corposlop if I ever take leave of my senses and want it, but you can see in an entertainment product when the people who made it actually ENJOYED making it, instead of going down the corporate-provided checklist.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Did you invent that term! Corposlop- is so perfect and it is my first time hearing it I am gonna use that now 😂

[–]JmBento   1 point2 points  (1 child)

Honestly couldn't tell you. There's a good chance I just spotted it somewhere and absorbed it, but it's also possible my brain just crafted it on its own and handed it to me on a cue card.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well i do think it's an awesome word 😁

[–]drivensalt   14 points15 points  (1 child)

And Hulu/Disney cancelled the Buffy revival - I'm sensing a trend.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh that is so sad I was excited about the revival. What new executive got in there and decided that their main job in life is to kill all content that features women as leads?

And historically Disney had been one of the better companies 😰

[–]Phaedo   4 points5 points  (1 child)

I hope those execs enjoyed watching kpop demon hunters become the biggest animated movie of the year, dominate cultural relevance and literally win an Oscar for best song.

[–]AhSparaGus   8 points9 points  (5 children)

Meanwhile K-Pop Demon Hunters is the most successful new IP to come out in at least the last decade

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 3 points4 points  (4 children)

I feel that way :) and the love story didn't feel forced or added on.

I also thought it was really touching that they both were trapped because he actually wanted to be good but felt that ship had sailed meanwhile she was born with a curse and lied and hid from her friends which made her feel like she didn't belong either.

Two people who were hiding there true feelings from there "squad" who came to respect and care for one another.

When he sacrificed himself to save her after betraying her I was tears the first time.

Like seriously anyone who hasn't seen K pop demon hunters is missing out!

[–]Geanois   [score hidden]  (3 children)

You might want to mark the spoiler as such? Pretty please? ☺️

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] [score hidden]  (1 child)

Sorry I mean it literally was the number one movie in the world for like three months and won an academy award so didn't think.

How do you do that again I will change it if you remind me the command.

It was a powerful scene I don't wanna ruin it.

[–]LostButterflyUtau   [score hidden]  (0 children)

Don’t bow to spoiler babies. I never do.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Looked it up 🙀 can't hurt to be careful best people take reasonable requests seriously ☺️

[–]goodlittlesquid   7 points8 points  (0 children)

Par for the course—look into the production history of Brave.

[–]slumlordscanstarve   3 points4 points  (1 child)

It’s weird because everyone lives KPop Demon Hunters and you could argue it’s predominantly for girls/women and features women/feminine themes. Which is fine. It’s been like number 1 for months now and they still play Golden on the radio. 

It’s like all these studios are scared of women stories but Kpop clearly shows everyone loves a good story with amazing music and stunning animation.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But it is an amazing story!

Do you think part of it is that for a female story to resonate it has to be amazing while male stories are allowed to be mid?

[–]ScurvyDervish   [score hidden]  (1 child)

How about we have kids movies with girl + boy best friends but one of them does not die? 

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Wow that's crazy I almost never seen that.

Growing up one of my favorite shows was "Clarissa explains it all" and it has Melissa Joan Heart who would go on to get famous for Sabrina the Teenage witch.

It was awesome. Granted I was the right age of a young girl at the time so would probably think it sucks now.

But I had lots of boys who were just friends n such so it was a related dynamic.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0101065/

[–]beaconstblue   9 points10 points  (1 child)

Isn't Studio Ghibli's catalog 85% "Girl power" movies? They do well enough...

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Didn't even think of that yeah they are but also the artistic vision of those worlds does anyone do stuff similar now?

The closest I felt is the new animated spidervse stuff with great world building and amazing characters.

[–]muticere   [score hidden]  (0 children)

Pixar has always been the “boy movie” studio, so this isn’t that big of a surprise, even if it does suck. But Pixar for decades has acted completely allergic to women and girl protagonists. Thank god Riley is a girl, it feels like a miracle that we have that film from Pixar.

[–]Competitive-Bat-43   [score hidden]  (0 children)

This is not new. If you really want to be enraged look at what they did with John Carter

[–]Phill_Cyberman   [score hidden]  (0 children)

What about Inside Out and Frozen?

Those are two of their biggest hits.

Is this actually just one top-level misogynist new to the company?

[–]Qualityhams   4 points5 points  (1 child)

Google the concept art. They could have had their own sailor moon/steven universe/kpop demon hunters franchise.

[–]aka_icegirl   [+1][S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It does have very Steven Universe vibes was that show not a hit? I thought it did well both critically and with audiences.

Steven Universe has one of my favorite songs!

I'm stronger than you: https://youtu.be/6OWq38TikzU?feature=shared

I looked at it wild!

https://www.reddit.com/r/AnimationDrama/s/QvfAWc1GsL

Are there shows in this style that you been vibing to lately?

[–]a_phantom_limb   [score hidden]  (0 children)

Pete Docter is an excellent filmmaker, but I think he's simply too cowardly an executive to be the chief creative officer. Between Elio, Win or Lose, Be Fri, and his recent comments, my respect for him has significantly diminished.

[–]venus-de-morte   0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fucks sake